Quote from Pope Urban VIII/Medjugorje

Heresy experiments in distortion; orthodoxy developes in proportion. The false emphasis is not only a wrong in itself but it is used as a means of diverting the eyes of men in the wrong direction. Van Zeller

Moderators: Johnna, MarieT

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Quote from Pope Urban VIII/Medjugorje

Post by PamC » Wed May 21, 2008 7:41 pm

I am in a what is turning out to be a rather lenghty debate about Medjugorje. I have already presented all the damning evidence I can find on the Medjugorje....most have now backed out, and at least one person I know has changed her mind from it's possible to now accepting the fact that Medjugorje is not from Heaven. However, there are a few die hards that remain.....this is one of the quotes, from Pope Urban VIII that they keep throwing at me. I have tried to find the source of this comment in context.....but only record I can find of it...is when it is quoted on some pro Medjugorje site...... :roll: Is this infact a legit quote? Or is it real, but just taken out of context? If he did say this, does anyone know where I can find the full passage or document that contains this quote. Thanks....Pam

“In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for if you believe and it is proven true, you will be happy that you believed, because our Holy Mother asked it of you. If you believed and it should be proven false, you will receive all the blessings as if it has been true, because you believed it to be true.” Pope Urban VIII

User avatar
Denise
Site Admin
Posts: 26975
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Denise » Wed May 21, 2008 8:40 pm

From Unity Publishing

There is a whole section at that link of Q&A. This is just one of the subjects addressed.



4. Please comment on the statement of Pope Urban VIII (17th Century), "It's better to believe than not to believe."

The promoters of un-approved apparitions and private revelations, appeal to two false conclusions from past Pope's statements, and in both cases they take statements out of context. As the Vatican has already clarified in their Nov. 1996 statement, "The interpretation given by some individuals to a Decision approved by Paul VI is absolutely groundless."

And regarding Pope Urban VIII, this also is taken out of context. He was referring to a private revelation that was under investigation but no conclusion was reached yet, for as he said, "and if it should prove to be false". The question you should ask is "prove to be false" by whom? By the promoters, the sheep, the bishop of the mystic, or by Rome.

The doctrine of the Church is "to the judgment of the diocesan Bishop". Of course, there must be a period of time before the diocesan Bishop comes to a conclusion, and during this period of time one is not held responsible for a false belief. If, however, you continue to believe in a mystic that the local Bishop has "proved to be false", will you still "receive all the blessings as if it were to be true"? No! Because then you have violated the Fourth Commandment. "Honor your Father and your Mother" because no one can have God for their Father without having the Church for their Mother.

"But, Lord, I believed with all my heart." (Matt. 7:21=24) "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day,

`Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?' And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you, depart from me, you that work iniquity.' Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock."

The important thing about this statement of Christ is that the person was surprised, he thought he was doing the will of God, and he thought that the power he had to perform miracles and give prophesies was also from God. But this power was not from God. Christ goes on to say what the rules are. "He who hears my word" means all his words. Read HIS WORDS in Matt. 18:17 which states, "And if he will not hear them [witnesses or the facts] tell the church. And if he will not hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican."

"We are of God. [the bishops] He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6)

When John wrote his three Epistles he was over 100 years old and all the other apostles had already been martyred. Where he says "we" he means the descendants of the apostles, the bishops.

Top of P
Devotion to the souls in Purgatory contains in itself all the works of mercy, which supernaturalized by a spirit of faith, should merit us Heaven. de Sales

User avatar
Denise
Site Admin
Posts: 26975
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Denise » Wed May 21, 2008 9:37 pm

Here is what St. John of the Cross said, which I have posted on another topic in here somewhere.


The Ascent of Mount Carmel (2.11:8,12):
8. "It is always well, then, that the soul should reject these things, and close its eyes to them, whencesoever they come. For, unless it does so, it will prepare the way for those things that come from the devil, and will give him such influence that, not only will his visions come in place of God's, but his visions will begin to increase, and those of God to cease, in such manner that the devil will have all the power and God will have none. So it has happened to many incautious and ignorant souls, who rely on these things to such an extent that many of them have found it hard to return to God in purity of faith; and many have been unable to return, so securely has the devil rooted himself in them; for which reason it is well to resist and reject them all. For, by the rejection of evil visions, the errors of the devil are avoided, and by the rejection of good visions no hindrance is offered to faith and the spirit harvests the fruit of them."
Devotion to the souls in Purgatory contains in itself all the works of mercy, which supernaturalized by a spirit of faith, should merit us Heaven. de Sales

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Wed May 21, 2008 9:56 pm

Denise,

Thanks so much for your help. The link you provided lead me to this...which I think will help....thanks again....Pam
Page 594 Acts of the Apostolic See - Official Brief


THE SUPREME SACRED CONGREGATION OF THE HOLY OFFICE
GIVES A DECREE
CONCERNING THE COMMONLY CALLED "SECRET OF LA SALETTE."
It has come to the attention of this Supreme Congregation that certain ones are not lacking, even from among the ecclesiastic assemblage who, responses and decisions of this Holy Congregation itself having been disregarded, do proceed to discuss and examine through books, small works and articles edited in periodicals, whether signed or without a name, concerning the so-called Secret of La Salette, its diverse forms and its relevance to present and future times; and, this not only without permission of the Ordinaries, but, also against their ban.

So that these abuses which oppose true piety and greatly wound ecclesiastical authority might be curbed, the same Sacred Congregation orders all the faithful of any region not to discuss or investigate under any pretext, neither through books, or little works or articles, whether signed or unsigned, or in any other way of any kind, about the mentioned subject. Whoever, indeed, violates this precept of the Holy Office, if they are priests, are deprived of all dignity and suspended by the local ordinary from hearing sacramental confessions and from offering Mass: and, if they are lay people, they are not permitted to the sacraments until they repent.

Moreover, let people be subject to the sanctions given both by Pope Leo XIII through the Constitution of the offices and responsibilities against those who publish books dealing with religious things without legitimate permission of superiors and by Urban VIII through the decree "Sanctissimus Dominus Noster" given on 13th March 1625 against those who publish asserted revelations without the permission of ordinaries. However, this decree does not forbid devotion towards the Blessed Virgin under the title of Reconciliatrix commonly of La Salette.

Given at Rome on 21st December, 1915.

Aloisius Castellano, S. R. and U. I. Notary.

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Wed May 21, 2008 9:57 pm

OOOPPPsss....here is the link

I couldn't find the edit button. :oops:

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/sal_decr.htm

User avatar
MarieT
Site Admin
Posts: 6860
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 12:02 am
Location: Australia

Post by MarieT » Wed May 21, 2008 11:49 pm

sounds like one of those "fools rush in "VS. "he who hesitates is lost" contra's :D

Pope urban wasnt around at the time of medj which has only been going on for over 20 odd years (lol at 'only')

We have the verdict from the Bishop whom has the authority to investigate the findings and also from the commissions set up to investigate it.

None of these authorities said medj was 'ok' In fact they condemned belief in it and spoke about grave concerns regarding medj.

recall the papal preacher himself (fr cantalamessa) was not permitted to go there....ummm whats that telling one?

That ends all debate. However you get some disobediant clergy that say the opposite (its not their right or jurisdiction to do so) therefore for people questioning this fake phenomena , i can understand how they would become confused. (bless them for making the rest of us throw every legit document at them ad nauseum lol - but to no avail).

In the long run, my conscience is clear that i have brought this to their attention, and then what medj 'believers' decide to do with the information presented is ultimately up to them.

Pam, all u can do is present the info to them.

blessings
marie
"He who followeth Me, walketh not in darkness." sayeth the Lord

User avatar
KevinSymonds
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:38 am

Post by KevinSymonds » Sat May 24, 2008 7:47 pm

Sanctissimus Dominus Noster.....a full, unadulterated copy......right from the original book!

It is not proven that Pope Urban VIII ever made that quote. I'm not even sure Rick Salbato knows where to find it and he's one of the local guru's around these parts on the subject. Ask any Medjugorje supporter for the citation.

Did anyone know Pope St. Pius X referred to Pope Urban VIII's Bull Sanctissimus Dominus Noster in his 1907 famous Encyclical Pascendi Domini Gregis (55)?

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Sat May 24, 2008 8:00 pm

Kevin,

Thanks!! I have asked for a source.....and gee they can't find one. But they know it must be true, because they saw it on a Medjugorje site... :roll:

Peace be with you...Pam

User avatar
Denise
Site Admin
Posts: 26975
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Denise » Sat May 24, 2008 10:20 pm

lol Pam!
Devotion to the souls in Purgatory contains in itself all the works of mercy, which supernaturalized by a spirit of faith, should merit us Heaven. de Sales

User avatar
KevinSymonds
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:38 am

Post by KevinSymonds » Sat May 24, 2008 11:27 pm

Send them to paragraph 55 of Pope St. Pius X's Encyclical "Pascendi Dominici Gregis"

Pascendi Dominici Gregis

-KJS

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Sat May 24, 2008 11:52 pm

Kevin thanks so much for your help......but I don't think I totally understand the part that I am posting below.
In passing judgment on pious traditions be it always borne in mind that in this matter the Church uses the greatest prudence, and that she does not allow traditions of this kind to be narrated in books except with the utmost caution and with the insertion of the declaration imposed by Urban VIII, and even then she does not guarantee the truth of the fact narrated; she simply does but forbid belief in things for which human arguments are not wanting. On this matter the Sacred Congregation of Rites, thirty years ago, decreed as follows: These apparitions and revelations have neither been approved nor condemned by the Holy See, which has simply allowed that they be believed on purely human faith, on the tradition which they relate, corroborated by testimonies and documents worthy of credence (Decree, May 2, 1877).
I mean the part before the mention of Pope Urban's name seems to be going my way....but the part I hopefully underlined...lol...that is if I worked the underline tags properly.....seems to be more supportive of the Pro-Med peeps' argument....what am I missing... :?:

Thanks.....Pam

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Sun May 25, 2008 12:35 am

BTW, the thread in which I was debating was locked.....because the mod had a problem with one of the post of another poster. There was nothing wrong with her post, but he precieved it to be an attack on the mods decision to leave the thread open that is posting daily messages from who they believe is Mary.

I have PM the Super of the Mods, and an Admin....asking both to close the Medjugorje thread down....that is posting the messages. They say they(staff, which happen to be very pro M. ) are working on a policy about unapproved messages. Which I already knew, but that was the response I got from the Super.....yet he ignored and even didn't address my request that the thread be closed....because it is promoting alleged apparitions as authenic. I sent him all the documention I had on how the bishop has surpressed the messages, but that directive has been ignored by the seers and the rebellious priests involved. I also supplied other documents to support that such behavior was wrong.....but NOOOOO. Also my request for him to just take action on the on post he thought broke board rules be address....and reopen the thread that we were debating the deception of Medjugorje.....this too fell on deaf ears.

I haven't heard back from the Admin yet, but I do know that he has a negative opinion on Medjugorje.

I do have another thread I can present the quotes about Pope Urban VII....I just need to make sure I understand it enough to defend it. If it doesn't sink in then I have someone that is also debating against M. ...I can send it to her, because she is way smarter than me....lol...

On a side note .....I was at Mass today, and was meditating on a stain glass window of the Assumption of Mary....and I was really drawn to her foot. I started to reflect back on approved apparitions of Mary.....from the ones I can recall (not that I can remember all of them).....she always has her feet or at least a foot showing. However, in Medjugoje the image of the alleged Mary her feet aren't showing.....hmmmmmm. Maybe the Devil has a problem with Gen 3:15.... :), and he is trying to be insulting, also she is dressed rather plainly...almost like it was bedtime or something. Just an observation.

Peace be with you....Pam

User avatar
Denise
Site Admin
Posts: 26975
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Denise » Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 am

she always has her feet or at least a foot showing
Devil is always depicted with hooves and if those feet weren't in a cloud then the hooves would show. There is no other depiction of Our Lady with covered feet. Nadda!

Denise
Devotion to the souls in Purgatory contains in itself all the works of mercy, which supernaturalized by a spirit of faith, should merit us Heaven. de Sales

User avatar
Denise
Site Admin
Posts: 26975
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Denise » Sun May 25, 2008 9:03 am

NOtice they don't call this a hoax but a legend
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/ghosts/devil.asp
Devotion to the souls in Purgatory contains in itself all the works of mercy, which supernaturalized by a spirit of faith, should merit us Heaven. de Sales

User avatar
PamC
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm
Location: Texas

Post by PamC » Sun May 25, 2008 9:05 am

Denise wrote:
she always has her feet or at least a foot showing
Devil is always depicted with hooves and if those feet weren't in a cloud then the hooves would show. There is no other depiction of Our Lady with covered feet. Nadda!

Denise
Okay, so it wasn't my imagination? I must have stared at the stain glass a thousand times over the past few years.....but yesterday was the first day that her foot, just stuck out like a sore thumb(pardon the appendage pun). And the thought occured to me, that the reason the M. image doesn't show the feet....is Satan is unwilling to acknowleged that her Seed had crushed his head.

I was just not sure if that made since to anyone else....and maybe my imagination was running away with me.

Peace be with you...Pam

Post Reply