Why I Believe In Our Lady of America

[Denise]

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Appariti ... eveOLA.htm

[Denise]

The True Story of Our Lady of America

[Johnna]

The article I am reading talks alot about contemplative prayer. Since there are other kinds of prayer, I stay away from that type. It is controversial. I haven't clicked the second link yet.

Nobody has ever answered my questions about ST. Joseph regarding this whole thing. Aparitions are not supposed to contradict Church teaching, and the things said about Joseph (if I remember correctly they were said BY Joseph) while not outright against Church teaching, certainly push the envelope. The statements are glaring, and it seems to me (whether I see rightly or wrongly I don't know, but... ) it seems to me that people gloss over those troublesome statements in order to believe in the rest because it is so plausable.

[Denise]

JB, exactly what was that statement? I want to ask Rick about it. Archbishop Burke just brought up OLA in an interview. You should read the second link, the history is there.

Contemplative prayer? When did it become controversial?

'Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us.'"

Teresa of Avila

[Johnna]

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the prayer because I honestly do have a BIG confusion between centering prayer and contemplative prayer. When I read things like the following quote, red flags go up. I fully admit that the red flags may come from my confusion between the two types of prayer. I have stayed away from both types rather than do something bad. Instead I look for God in the blessed sacrament. After communion is one of the few times I look within to find God since there is nothing holy about me aside from the Eucharist.
(this quote is from the first link)

...it is imperative at lest, in this late hour, to seriously look into ourselves and recognize the Glory living within, drawing us to itself, that Divine Presence, so mysterious, yet so infinitely real, the only reality into which and out of which all others flow and have their birth. He partakes of the Divine Life and this is our sanctity. The Holy Spirit leads each person according to their needs and lights at the moment, but all spirituality has its basis in the Divine Trinity, living within us.

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As far as the two quotes from Joseph (yes he himself supposedly said these, I'll cut and paste from the second link you provided.)

It is true, my daughter, that immediately after my conception, I was, through the future merits of Jesus and because of my exceptional role of future Virgin-Father, cleansed from the stain of original sin.

Is it true that Joseph is also immaculately concieved?

The most painful of my sorrows was that I knew beforehand of their passion, yet would not be there to console them. Their future suffering was ever present to me and became my daily cross. I became, in union with my holy spouse, co-redemptor of the human race. Through compassion for the sufferings of Jesus and Mary, I cooperated, as no other, in the salvation of the world.

The part that bothers me most in this is bolded. I have one redeemer, Jesus. Calling Mary co-redemptrix is contraversial enough, but to add on Joseph? Is the church going to teach this too?

My big question is... can the rest of the aparitions be right if these Joseph quotes are wrong?

[Denise]

JB, Rick just came in and read the thread. Here is his answer to your question.

Contemplative prayer and centering prayer are not the same thing. Contemplative prayer was taught by St. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila, this is simply quiet prayer of loving and listening to God, not that He speaks words but He enlightens the soul. Centering prayer is wrong in that it takes people into themselves as if they were gods.

As for St. Joseph's statement that he was baptized before birth, this is not contrary to faith because the Church takes no position on it but St. John the Baptist was also baptized in the womb. This is not the same as being conceived without sin. Nor does it add or take away any faith that we believe.
Rick

[Denise]

Rick just emailed me and said he added the above comments to his document.

Denise

[JeniR]

The part that bothers me most in this is bolded. I have one redeemer, Jesus. Calling Mary co-redemptrix is contraversial enough, but to add on Joseph? Is the church going to teach this too?

I think this is a very important question. If Joseph can be called co-reedmer what eventually stops us from saying that we too are co-redeemers?

[Johnna]

My husband has read that bit and he will have nothing to do with the apparition now. It is a huge stumbling block.

[JeniR]

As for St. Joseph's statement that he was baptized before birth, this is not contrary to faith because the Church takes no position on it but St. John the Baptist was also baptized in the womb. This is not the same as being conceived without sin. Nor does it add or take away any faith that we believe.
Rick

Just because the Church takes no position on a certain topic does not mean that it is NOT against faith. If we take this position this is fallible. I would think that the statement of St. Joseph saying he was baptized before birth would also be why he would call himself a co-redeemer with Mary and Christ! How many co-redeemers do we need??

Also, upon further reflection, Saint John the Baptist was never said to be without sin. According to the quotes here Mary said, " As in our little home no sin was to be found, so it is the wish of the Heart of my Son and my Immaculate Heart that sin should, as far as possible, be unheard of in the homes of our children. " Was St. Joseph then sinless? I don't believe we can use the example of St. John the Baptist since he never claimed sinlessness!

I also feel that the following statement might be contradictory.

It is true, my daughter, that immediately after my conception, I was, through the future merits of Jesus and because of my exceptional role of future Virgin-Father, cleansed from the stain of original sin.

I was from that moment confirmed in grace and never had the slightest stain on my soul.

In the first paragraph St. Joseph states he was cleansed immediatley after his conception, which means that he was conceived with the stain of original sin, and then goes on to state that he was confirmed in grace and NEVER had the slightest stain on his soul. Am I reading this wrong?

[Johnna]

I don't know. I only know that the Joseph part of the messages raise red flags to me. The co redeemer thing causes my husband to "just say no" and look at the whole issue no further.

On top of that, there are people who have created and promote the statue. They've publicly processed with it and are trying to get it enshrined at the national bascillica. It is my understanding that the prayer has been approved. Any other image has NOT. Prayer cards that you see with the statue on it and the prayer on the back, that statue was not approved to be made. I get suspicious when crowds of people act in disobedience. The immaculate conception is patron of the USA already. Why do we need to add a different title to her in order to invoke her protection and intercession?

[Denise]

Private revelation is not a matter of faith, but cannot be contrary to the faith. Many bishops have investigated this apparition and find it not contrary to faith. What St. Joseph said does not contradict faith but does not have to be believed. We simply do not know if he sinned or not. The Church does say he is the highest in Heaven next to Mary, but what that means regarding his life is not defined by the Church. As for co-redemption, we all cooperate in redemption even though Christ does not need it. See what Paul said about this.
Rick

[Johnna]

I know how many paths there are to heaven.