Marian Helper Problems.../Medjugorje

[Lori]

Fellow Catholics,

I write this with great heaviness in my heart. In 1988 and 1989 I first learned of Blessed Faustina from my grandmother. It was 1988 or about and Blessed Faustina had not yet been canonized. I have prayed ever since then the 3 o'clock Hour of Great Mercy prayer, "O Blood and Water which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You."

Now we jump to fall 2005. I received a Marian Helper fall magazine. On the inside cover is a priest. Father Donald Calloway, MIC (marians of the Immaculate Conception) and he is selling/advertising his books and videos chuck full of deception to say the least. He advocates devotion to "DISPROVED" apparitions. Father Calloway and his confreres attend Marian conferences and intermingle Saint Faustina's Diary and "disobedient writings and videos" on the same tables.

Last year I sent a letter to nearly all of the Superiors in the Marians of the Immaculate Conception about Father Calloway and his website which is very easy to find and horrible in content. Father Calloway is also the vocations director for the Marians. How sad! I received one response and that was that "they would look into it."

And so I pray. This morning I called the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy, the congregation that Saint Faustina belongs to. I spoke to a lovely sister there and she said that there are errors in the Divine Mercy chaplet booklets that come from the Marians. The Marians have changed some words and added prayers to the beginning and the end of the Chaplet that do not belong. The Sisters, for free, will come to a parish that requests them and teach them correctly the Devotion to Divine Mercy. The link is www.sisterfaustina.org The Sisters also have the correct chaplet pamphlets and books for purchase at their website.

I end with a request. Please stop supporting the Marian Helpers financially by purchasing their books, tapes, or pamphlets. The money is not being used for the promotion of the Kingdom of God. I pray the Marians will clean house and return to the fold.

Denise has wonderful links on her website that will educate us on what devotions are proper and which are not. One such link is www.unitypublishing.com

Jesus, I Trust in You!
Saint Faustina, pray for us!

Lori

[johnmc]

What errors?

Are the Marians in communion with the Church or not? I've seen them on EWTN.

John

[MarkieW]

Hi, I Would be Very interested In Knowing About This Topic As Well,Very Interested!! I Have An Association with these People and this Is News To me,Please Explain More,Peace,MM

[MarkieW]

Hi I found this Article on father Calloway,I Know St. Josephs communications Promotes his stuff,so does EWTN. Sounds Like Someone I Know ,Me I Had A similar Conversion Experience Thru St.Faustina And the Divine Mercy Devotion. Any way Here it Is. www.spiritdaily.org/MHB%20editorials/calloway.htm

[Denise]

catholicculture.org concerning spiritdaily, which is not a site I want posted here because it is my duty as a servant of God, one who tries to be faithful, to not feed poison to those seeking the Lamb of God.

Blessings
Denise

WEAKNESSES Spirit Daily
· Promotes unapproved apparitions (Fidelity)
Example(s)

Examples include:

* Multiple links to Medjugorje sites
* News articles relating purported messages of "seers" predicting furture events
* Advertisements for Medjugorje tours

· News articles include both Catholic and Protestant subject matter without differentiating (Fidelity)

· Bookstore contains questionable titles and authors (Fidelity)
Example(s)
Examples include:

* The Amazing Secrets of the Souls in Purgatory: Sister Emmanuel, a nun from Medjugorje, interviews Maria Simma, an alleged mystic who has the charism of being able to see and talk to the souls in Purgatory.
* The Day Will Come by Michael Brown: A guide to answer your questions about discernment and the astounding religious phenomena of our times, with facts about Medjugorje, Betania, and other sites -- and about times about to come. Written in question-and-answer format, it is the most thorough analysis yet on the ten secrets of Medjugorje and their place in historical and mystical events -- driving away sensationalism to reveal exciting truths.
* and more.


Problematic Catholic links (Fidelity)
Example(s)
* Catholic Apologetics International
* Catholic Onine
* Theology Library
* Catholic Doors

· Large number of non-Catholic and secular links (Fidelity)

[Lori]

What errors?

Are the Marians in communion with the Church or not? I've seen them on EWTN.

John,

The Marians in Stockbridge, Massachusetts are not in communion with the Church. The Marians are saying that they will decide good from evil on their own. The Marians are pushing devotion to the disproved apparition in Medjugorje. The Church has spoken definitively on this matter. The Bishop, who is the local ordinary and has full jurisdiction in any matter regarding supernatural occurrences in his diocese has given us the final word on Medjugorje. There is no debate here. I can not choose on my own what I want to or do not want to believe. The Church has spoken. I obey. The Marians are not obeying. They have cut themselves off. I have copied and pasted directly from the Bishop of Mostar's webpage.


www.cbismo.hr

MEĐUGORJE:

SECRETS, MESSAGES, VOCATIONS, PRAYERS, CONFESSIONS, COMMISSIONS

Ratko Perić, bishop of Mostar-Duvno




Msgr. Ratko Perić

bishop of Mostar-Duvno, BiH



MEĐUGORJE:



SECRETS, MESSAGES, VOCATIONS, PRAYERS, CONFESSIONS, COMMISSIONS



Maynooth/Dublin, February 17, 2004





Medjugorje is a parish in the diocese of Mostar-Duvno in Bosnia-Herzegovina, with a population of about 4,000 persons, which has been entrusted to the pastoral care of the Franciscan fathers OFM. From 24 June 1981 onwards, some events have been occurring which many people, some Franciscans included, have attributed to so-called apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who has seemingly presented herself as the "Queen of Peace".



I. How many so-called visionaries and visions are there?



1. Vicka Ivanković, born on 3 September 1964, in the parish of Medjugorje, has been receiving "apparitions" from 24 June 1981. Every day. There have been pauses, but there have also been days with up to ten "visions". Vicka married Mario Mijatović in 2002 and now has one child and lives in the neighbouring parish of Gradina.

How many "visions" has she had till now? - According to a simple calculation of the days, it would be 8,270 including yesterday's. These "apparitions" were with the other "seers" during the first years, yet for many years now she has been having them alone, separately, in the evening, regardless of her location. As if they were programmed.

2. Marija Pavlović, born on 1 April 1965 in the parish of Medjugorje, has been a "seer" from the second day of the "apparitions", 25 June 1981, every day up till now. In 1993 she married an Italian, Paolo Lunetti. She has three children and is now living in Monza, near Milano, Italy.

How many "visions" has she had till now? Around 8,270 including yesterday's, together with the other "privileged" few or separately. The "apparitions" are not tied so much to the locality of Medjugorje as to persons: wherever these persons travel in the world, the "apparitions" travel with them.

3. Ivan Dragićević, born in Mostar on 25 May 1965, has had daily "apparitions" from 24 June 1981 to this day. He married the former Miss Massachusetts, Loreen Murphy in 1994 and has four children. He lives with his family part of the time in Boston and the rest of the time in Medjugorje.

How many "visions" has Ivan had till now? About 8,270 with last night's, together with the other "seers" or separately.

4. Mirjana Dragićević, born in Sarajevo on 18 March 1965, has had "visions" from 24 June 1981. Her last regular encounter was on Christmas day 1982. From that day onward, she has received an "apparition" once a year - on her birthday - 18 March. Along with this, from 2 August 1987, on each 2nd day of the month, she hears the Madonna's voice and sometimes sees her. That would make it 17 years times 12 months, she either hears or sees the Madonna. Mirjana married Marko Soldo in 1989 and has two children. She is now living in Medjugorje.

How many "visions" has Mirjana had till now? All totalled: about 770.

5. Ivanka Ivanković was born in the parish of Medjugorje on 21 June 1966. The phenomenon appeared to her from 25 June 1981 to 7 May 1985. She now has a "vision" once a year, on 25 June 1981, on the anniversary of the "apparitions". She married Rajko Elez and has three children. She is currently living in Medjugorje.

How many "visions" has Ivanka had till now? About 1,450 all together.

6. Jakov Čolo was born on 6 March 1971 in the parish of Medjugorje. From 25 June 1981 he received daily "apparitions" till 12 September 1998. From this date onward, he has only had one a year - on Christmas day. In 1993, he married Anna-Lisa Barozzi from Italy. They have three children and now live in Medjugorje.

How many "visions" has he had till now? Together with the others and separately, around 6,290.

The Madonna has been presumably "appearing" on a regular basis and at one and the same time, even if one of the "seers" is in America, another "visionary" in Herzegovina, a third in Italy or a fourth in Maynooth. Adding all this up together makes for 33,320 "apparitions" up till now. Please don't ask me about the accuracy of these statistics, because a thousand "apparitions" more or less, have no role to play here! The hierarchical Church at various levels, diocesan, national and Holy See, hasn't accepted a single apparition as authentic.

Let us now compare Medjugorje to two recognized Marian shrines:

At Lourdes in 1858, the Madonna appeared as the "Immaculate Conception", 18 times to Bernadette. The Church accepted these apparitions and four years afterwards declared them authentic, in 1862.

At Fatima in 1917, the Madonna appeared as "Our Lady of the Rosary" 6 times to the ten year old shepherd children Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta. 13 years later, in 1930, the Church accepted these apparitions as authentic.

Three of the Medjugorje "seers", who say they have daily "apparitions", live most of the time outside of Medjugorje, while the remaining three that live in Medjugorje supposedly have only one "apparition" a year.



II. HOW MANY SECRETS HAS THE ALLEGED MADONNA

GIVEN TO THE SO-CALLED SEERS?



Those who have daily "visions" have received nine secrets, while those who have "apparitions" once a year, have ten secrets. It is not clear if nine or ten secrets have been given and are known to each of the "seers", or if each of the "seers" has his/her own number of secrets which differ from the rest.

If we compare this to the authentic apparitions, then one can see that at Lourdes there were no secrets for the world, while at Fatima one secret was divided into three parts. Yet at Medjugorje till now there have been 9 or 10, or even 57 possible secrets, which have been divided by three "seers" who have received 10 and another three who have received 9. To this day not a single secret has been revealed.

In the first years there was apocalyptic talk about a "great sign" to happen, yet to this day this "great sign" has not occurred, and the expectation of a sign has diminished.



III. HOW MANY PRESUMED MESSAGES HAVE THERE BEEN?



All the "messages" of Medjugorje can be summed up into five basic ones, as is usually the case, yet these "five" are actually the following "fourteen": peace, conversion, prayer, fasting, vigilance, penance, adoration, witnessing, faith, call to holiness, Eucharist, Word of God, monthly confession, rosary…

Many authors greatly differ which five should be taken from these fourteen. Italian, French and Croat authors… all have their own interpretations. It's important to mention here that besides the daily "messages", there are also special monthly "messages" on the 25th of each month, which are given to Marija in Italy, which she then sends to the parish rectory of Medjugorje for verification and are then sent out into the world.

All these "messages" of the various interpreters of Medjugorje, are heard every Sunday in churches. For us, the novelty of Medjugorje would be that the "Queen of Peace" on the 25th of each month sends out a special communication with the message: "Thank you children, for responding to my invitation". The Madonna thanks the "seers" for having the time, for wanting to, and deigning themselves to meet and talk with her. According to these words the "Madonna" is amazed and grateful to the "seers" who have responded to her invitation! This is somewhat like parents thanking their children for being born, or physicians thanking the infirm for seeking their health back! (Ogledalo Pravde=Mirror of Justice, Mostar, 2001, pp. 249-250).



IV. HOW MANY VOCATIONS HAVE RESULTED FROM THE "APPARITIONS"?



Of the six "seers" of Medjugorje, none of them have achieved a religious vocation. Three of them mentioned that they were going to enter and two even went on to follow this inexplicable voice, yet with time everything vanished.

Ivan Dragićević, became a candidate for the Franciscan Province of Herzegovina. In 1981 he went to the minor seminary of Visoko where he continued with the "apparitions". Due to the fact that he failed to pass his repeat examination, it was decided that he could possibly do better if he went to the minor seminary of Dubrovnik. While in Dubrovnik, he managed to pass his repeat examination and enter into the second year, but he didn't show an aptitude for school as he did for the "apparitions", and hence he returned home in January 1983.

Having said farewell to the seminary, Ivan continued not only with daily "apparitions" to this day, but at a certain point began imposing the harsh demands of this phenomenon of his upon the local bishop Pavao Žanić, that he accept the "messages" of Medjugorje. In 1994 he married an American woman in Boston and thereby irrevocably transformed his religious vocation into a marriage (O. P., p. 34).

Vicka Ivanković from the outset demonstrated enthusiasm for the religious life. In September 1981 she confided this to an Italian weekly: I would like to enter a convent and become a nun.

Even though she was an "enrolled nun", Vicka never entered a convent. Twenty years later, she found a young man from the neighbouring parish of Gradina and the two of them were married in Medjugorje. Over two thousand invited and curious guests attended their wedding party. During the wedding festivities, the "seer" went to her new house a few kilometres away from the noise of the wedding party with husband alongside her and had a "vision". Everything according to routine and regular programming. Afterwards they went back to the wedding party.

The "visionary" in the beginning announced Urbi et Orbi - "to Rome and the world" - that she is an "enrolled nun", but twenty years later she travelled to Rome to buy her wedding dress. The "visionary" explained this to a journalist: the Madonna gave each of us our freedom to choose. Everyone can respond to the vocation they desire. Regardless of the fact that I'm now married, I shall continue to spread the messages of the Madonna, because Christian faith can be witnessed in marriage as well.

Regarding her religious vocation - she's free, yet as regards "spreading the messages of the Madonna" - she's obligated?!

Marija Pavlović. In response to an Italian journalist's question Why haven't any one of you decided to become a priest or nun? Marija in 2001 gave the following explanation: For many years I thought that I would become a nun. I began visiting a convent and my desire to go there was very strong. But the sister superior once told me: "Marija, if you want to enter, you are very welcome; but if the bishop decides that you must not speak about Medjugorje, you will have to obey". At that moment I began thinking that my vocation might possibly be to witness to that which I saw and heard, and that I will be able to find the road to holiness outside the convent (O. P., p. 28).

Marija therefore came to terms with the demands of religious life in which she couldn't obey the bishop if he were to decide that she shouldn't spread the "apparitions" which the Church even to this day has not declared authentic. And hence, she decided to find the road to holiness "outside the convent".

No God's work. Yet things weren't exactly that way. Marija did eventually attempt entering a mixed spiritual community, where she remained for several months. She then left the community with a written explanation that provoked not little public astonishment. First of all, it was written that the Madonna, through Marija, had said on 8 March 1987 that that community was God's plan, God's work. Later on, when she left the community with her boyfriend Paolo Lunetti, who helped her leave and write the letter, she denied everything in her own handwriting on 11 July 1988: before God, the Madonna, and the Church of Jesus Christ, she categorically denied that there were ever any "messages" through her for this community and for this work of God, in which she had lived for several months (O. P., pp. 30-31).

At that time, in 1983, Fr. Tomislav Vlašić OFM, who was the spiritual director of the "seers" of Medjugorje, wrote to the Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar: The children have decided to enter the religious life, but they are waiting for the right moment which only they know (O. P., p. 55). Today the whole world knows that these were only simple stories or children's fairytales. Not all the "privileged" children of Medjugorje entered the religious life, while those that tried - quickly left. Only the mature won't allow themselves to be misled by irrational "messages" and children's stories! Is this some kind of "sign", "secret" or "message" of Medjugorje?

Though I believe that it's improper, I will nevertheless compare these "vocations" with the two best-known modern Marian shrines.

At Lourdes the 14 year old Bernardette once said: I must become a nun, but I don't know in which Order. The Holy Virgin told me this and I'm waiting. She received her religious robes in July 1866. Though infirm, she held on to her death on 16 April 1879. Pope Pius XI canonized her on the Immaculate Conception in 1933.

Secondly, at Fatima, the seer Lucia became a nun in 1921 and a discalced carmelite in 1948. Little Francisco and Jacinta died as children and were both beatified by Pope John Paul II at Fatima in the year 2000.

There's something strange in all of this: three "seers" who tried to "enrol" themselves into religious life, who later on dismissed themselves and were happily married, still have regular daily "apparitions". The other "seers" though, who didn't enter the religious life, receive an "apparition" only once a year. Can this be considered a reward for those who didn't enter the religious life?

A grace of God. Keeping in mind the fact that many young boys from Herzegovina who entered the seminary and who later became priests and the numerous young girls who became nuns (from the parish of Medjugorje alone there are over 30 living priests and sisters) who from what I know, never had any apparition, message or encounter with any supernatural phenomenon; it's indeed odd that not one of the "seers" in these 23 years, who have had between 770 and 8,270 "apparitions" realized a religious vocation. And this same phenomenon, in a threatening way, demands that bishop Žanić recognize the "messages" of Medjugorje as authentic without questioning them. Every true religious vocation is a grace of God and a serious matter. The manner in which religious vocations were handled by the "visionaries" has been shown to be irresponsible. Is this possibly a question of games without borders, regarding numbers, "visions", "messages", "revelations", "secrets" and "signs"?



V. WHAT DO PRAYERS AND CONFESSIONS PROVE?



1. Prayer as a context. Prayer is an important factor in the "apparitions" of Medjugorje. It's in the context of praying the Our Father that in most cases the "apparitions" begin for the "seers". They even cease praying so that the "apparition" can be followed for a few minutes.

2. A Message not to pray. On 16 September 1981: "She also told them that they need not pray for themselves, because she has rewarded them in the best fashion. They should pray for others instead" (O. P., p. 111).

- The Biblical Madonna will never say that people need not pray for themselves and that the "reward of apparitions" replaces personal prayer. This is false teaching. Even Jesus prayed firstly for himself, then for his apostles and then for the entire world "that all may be one" (Jn 17).

3. A Message to pray for bishop Žanić. Concerning a prayer-group of Medjugorje "the Madonna has asked that they fast on bread and water twice a week. Three months later we are fasting on bread and water three times a week. The group is offering the majority of their prayers for him (bishop Žanić). We often offer our adoration, rosaries and visits to the place of the apparitions where we pray long into the night for him. God shall look upon our prayers and fasting" (O. P., p. 126). So wrote Fr. Tomislav Vlašić OFM on 8 January 1984.

The phenomenon established a prayer-group around Fr. Tomislav Vlašić OFM, who in a letter in 1984 presented himself to the Pope as the one "who through Divine providence guides the seers of Medjugorje" (O. P., p. 56). This group has been praying and fasting just so that the bishop would give in to their hallucinations. They also built a convent in Medjugorje with close to 100 beds and didn't even think of asking the bishop for permission to do this. Then the "mystifier" Fr. Vlašić was recently removed from his guiding role in the prayer-group, after having mixed the spiritual with spiritism in Medjugorje during a retreat!

4. He could have but didn't want to? In an interview in 1993, during the height of the war, the "seer" Jakov said: "The Madonna has asked me today, as every day during these last twelve years, that I pray for peace in the former Yugoslavia. The Virgin convinced me that I could stop the war with my prayers…" (O. P., p. 37).

- If this weren't so naďve, a normal believer would ask himself: if the "seer" was capable of stopping the war in ex-Yugoslavia, then why didn't he go pray and bring to an end? Yet during the war over 2 million people were displaced, over 200,000 were killed, thousands of religious sites and tens of thousands of homes were destroyed, and then the unjust Dayton accord was imposed upon us!

5. Can prayer be considered proof? There are people within the Church who say: If the people are praying to God, let them then go to Medjugorje, let them make their pilgrimages and pray. It's better for them to pray than not to pray, better to venerate "the Madonna of Medjugorje" than not to venerate any Madonna at all!

For 2000 years now the Church has been teaching and suggesting to the faithful that they pray, fast, do penance, go to confession and convert. She doesn't prohibit anyone from praying to God where they please. But she doesn't allow "pilgrimages to the place of the apparitions" to be endorsed in churches from the altar, that have not been accepted as authentic. She does this so that the truth may be separated from falsehood, and true doctrine separated from false doctrine.

As if it were really necessary for someone to travel thousands of kilometres from Corea or Ireland to Medjugorje just to pray a rosary or to make a confession. Yet Jesus teaches us to go into your room and pray to your Father in heaven! (Mt 6:6).

Do those who say that they have travelled to Medjugorje over thirty times, really prove by saying this that they have "converted"? This could be a real sign that they haven't converted (O. P., pp. 229-230). A truly converted person would never boast about this but would rather demonstrate it by his life!

If the faithful of the parish of St. James's in Medjugorje sincerely confess their sins and pray, regardless of all the nursery rhyme "apparitions", they thereby certainly receive the same Divine graces that other believers receive who pray and validly receive the sacraments in Catholic churches throughout the world. The local Church has always held this belief (O. P., pp. 268-269).



VI. HOW MANY CHURCH COMMISSIONS AND INTERVENTIONS

HAVE THERE BEEN?



Towards the end of June 1981, the sensational news of the "Madonna's apparitions" to children in Medjugorje started to spread in the mass-media. In mid-August of the same year, after having spoken with the so-called seers in Medjugorje on 21 July, in his first Statement, the bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Msgr. Pavao Žanić, emphasized that the most difficult question is whether or not this is a "subjective experience of the children or something supernatural?" (O. P., p. 192). Even though he had informed the Pope and the Holy See on many occasions regarding the diverse opinions regarding Medjugorje, the bishop felt it was necessary to establish a diocesan commission in order to study the events.



A - The Chancery of the Diocese of Mostar



The First Church Commission (1982 - 1984)



Bishop Žanić established the first Commission on 11 January 1982, which worked until 1984 (O. P., p. 43). It was comprised of four theologians, 2 diocesan priests and 2 religious.

The bishop's new discoveries. The Commission hadn't even gathered yet when on 14 January 1982 something happened that marked the bishop's position once and for all. That day, three of the "seers" came to Mostar with the "Madonna's" message that the bishop, regarding the famous Herzegovinian Affair acted too hastily, because he sought the removal of two Franciscan associate pastors who were causing problems in Mostar. The bishop, who during his lifetime venerated the Madonna with numerous devotions and pilgrimages, upon hearing that the phenomenon in Medjugorje was accusing him of irreligious disorder in reference to the parishes; that it didn't recognize in him a faithful son of the Church and the Madonna, the Mother of the Church, to whom a year earlier in September 1980, the Cathedral church of Mostar was consecrated; that the phenomenon was defending disobedient religious friars who were obstructing the normal functioning of the Cathedral, began to look with suspicion upon the "messages" and the "apparitions" in Medjugorje. Despite this, the Commission began its work.

Great sign. The Commission held three conversations with the "seers". In 1982, the third meeting brought some results. On the bishop's request, the Commission asked the "seers" to write down in double copy, what kind of "great sign" shall appear and when it would happen. They were then to put their responses into two envelopes and then seal them. One of the envelopes was to kept by them while the other at the Chancery office. When the "great sign" occurs, then the envelopes would be opened and the truth verified. However, five of the "seers" refused to answer the questions, because the Madonna did not permit them to. Yet the seminarian Ivan did respond in writing to the questions. He even said that the Madonna did not forbid him from responding to the questions. His response was more than inappropriate. A good number of lies and tricks are tied to this "great sign" which to this day hasn't occurred (O. P., pp. 102-108).

The Response to the Holy See. In November 1983, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith asked the bishop if the Commission has come to some conclusions. Bishop Žanić wrote a study on Medjugorje and the Herzegovinian Affair, which he sent to Cardinal Josef Ratzinger. In the conclusion the bishop puts forth the question of the "apparitions":

Are they from God? - The "Madonna" of Medjugorje has brought more disorder and disarray here than there was earlier! Hence he doesn't see how he can accept this as coming from God.

Is it from the devil? - He has difficulty accepting this hypothesis as well, even though the thought has crossed his mind.

Is it all a hoax? - From the outset one can notice that the children have sometimes lied. At times it's clear that what they say is what they have heard from the Franciscans, especially regarding the "Herzegovinian Affair". The bishop goes on to say that he awaits the judgement of the Commission and the cessation of the "apparitions". The bishop waited 17 years and he saw the Madonna in heaven on 11 January 2000 (the day of his death) before seeing the "visions" of Medjugorje cease.



The Second extended Commission (1984 - 1986)



In 1984 bishop Žanić decided to extend the first Commission. He wrote to all the theological faculties in Yugoslavia and sought the permission of certain religious superiors to allow their experts to join the Commission.

There were 15 members in the Second Commission: 12 priests and 3 medical experts. They held seven meetings in all. The first was in Mostar in March 1984, and the seventh in the same city in May 1986, during which the Commission completed its work. The members of the Commission voted on the following conclusion: Non constat de supernaturalitate (11 voted 'for', 2 'against', 1 accepted 'in nucleo', and 1 abstained). The Commission prepared a draft "Declaration" in which were listed the "unacceptable assertions" and "bizarre declarations", attributed to the curious phenomenon. The Commission also stated that further investigations were not necessary nor the delaying of the official judgement of the Church. The bishop duly informed the Bishops' Conference and the Holy See, and he then informed the public during his homily in Medjugorje in 1987 (O. P., pp. 47-50).

The well-known negative position of the bishop which he summarized in 28 points in 1990, is significant since it speaks of the inauthentic nature of these supernatural apparitions (O. P., p. 196).

In August of 1993, bishop Žanić handed over the administration of the diocese to his successor who continued his work at a swift pace.



B - The Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia



The Bishops of Yugoslavia intervened twice, in 1984 and 1985, and asked both priests and faithful to await the judgement of the Church regarding the events of Medjugorje, which shall be given after intense investigations. Hence, no pilgrimages are to be organized as if "the Church has already given a positive judgement" (O. P., p. 193).



The Third Commission (1987 - 1990)



In January 1987, upon the suggestion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Franjo Kuharić, president of the Bishops' Conference, and bishop Žanić made a joint communiqué in which they announced the formation of the third Commission and in which they asked the faithful not to organize pilgrimages motivated "from above" which would ascribe to the events of Medjugorje (O. P., p. 196). The Commission was comprised of 11 priests (6 religious, 5 diocesan), 4 physicians and psychologists and one religious sister as secretary.

The Commission held 23 meetings in Zagreb at the Secretariat of the Bishops' Conference. The first meeting was in April 1987 and the twenty-third in September 1990.

A characteristic of the third Commission was to work on the findings and results of the previous Commissions and ex novo. Everything was done under oath and no statements for the public were made. The results of their four-year long efforts were presented to the members of the Bishops' Conference in Zagreb in 1990. Discussions at the Bishops' Conference on the "apparitions" were held on four occasions: 25 April, 9 October and 27 November 1990, and the Declaration on Medjugorje was accepted through a vote held in Zadar on 10 April 1991: 19 bishops voted for the Declaration while 1 abstained.

The Declaration states: "During the regular session of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia, held in Zadar from April 9-11, 1991, the following was accepted:

DECLARATION



From the very beginning, the Bishops have been following the events of Medjugorje through the local Bishop, the Bishops' Commission and the Commission of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia for Medjugorje.

On the base of studies made so far, it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations.

Yet the gathering of the faithful from various parts of the world to Medjugorje, inspired by reasons of faith or other motives, require the pastoral attention and care, first of all, of the local Bishop and then of the other bishops with him, so that in Medjugorje and all connected with it, a healthy devotion towards the Blessed Virgin Mary according to the teachings of the Church may be promoted. The Bishops will also provide special liturgical and pastoral directives corresponding to this aim. At the same time, they will continue to study all the events of Medjugorje through the commissions.

Zadar, 10 April 1991

The Bishops of Yugoslavia"



The Aggression. In the years that followed, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina found themselves victims of a terrible aggression. With the formation of new states, new Bishops' Conferences were established. Despite the Declaration of the Bishops' Conference: Non constat de supernaturalitate, that is, that it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje, the adherents of this phenomenon consistently claim that the "Madonna is appearing".

If our Bishops' Conference, despite numerous curious visitors to Medjugorje, notwithstanding massive publicity accompanied by charismatic inspirations, had the courage to declare on the base of serious, solid and expert investigations, that there is no proof in Medjugorje of any supernatural apparitions, this then is a sign that the Church even in the 20th century is still "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim 3, 15) - (O. P., p. 151).



C - The Interventions of the Holy See



The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has intervened four times through two of its Secretaries, while the Prefect, Cardinal Ratzinger, also made an important intervention.

In 1985, Msgr. Alberto Bovone notified the Secretary of the Bishops' Conference of Italy not to organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje.

In 1995, Msgr. Tarcisio Bertone wrote to the bishop of Langres, Msgr. Leon Taverdet, and repeated the same to Msgr. Lucien Daloz of Besançon, France, who were interested in knowing the position of the Holy See on Medjugorje.

Finally, in 1998, the same Secretary wrote to Msgr. Gilbert Aubry, bishop of Reunion. All these letters emphasized that pilgrimages, whether private or public, are not allowed if they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions, since this would be in contradiction to the declaration of the Bishops' Conference of Yugoslavia.

Ratzinger's frei erfunden. In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements which were supposedly made by the Holy Father and the Cardinal Prefect, and forwarded them to the Vatican in the form of a memorandum, the Cardinal responded in writing on 22 July 1998: "The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention" - frei erfunden - (O. P., p. 283).

Conclusion. Not only are these statements ascribed to the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger "complete invention", but the numerous messages of Medjugorje, ascribed to the Madonna are also complete invention. If our faith is considered obsequium rationabile - rational service to God, true and healthy spiritual worship, as it rightfully is (Rm 12:1), then it cannot be any person's private fantasy or illusion (O. P., p. 84). The Church is competent to say this. In her name, 30 chosen priests and physicians, working together in three Commissions for 10 years, in more than 30 meetings, dutifully and expertly investigated the events of Medjugorje and brought forth their results of study. And not one, but twenty bishops responsibly declared that there exists no proof that the events in Medjugorje concern supernatural apparitions or revelations. The believer who respects both principles: ratio et fides, adheres to this criterion, convinced that the Church does not deceive.

Regarding Medjugorje, there's a real danger that the Madonna and the Church could be privatized. People could start contriving a Madonna and a Church according to their own taste, perception and deception: by not submitting their reason as believers to the official Magisterium of the Church, but rather forcing the Church to follow and recognize their fantasy.

Naďve believers could easily then leave the living fountains of grace in their own parishes to mosey on down to Medjugorje or follow the "seers" around the world, who by the way, thanks to the "apparitions" have good homes and a comfortable existence - at least that's what the mass-media say.

There are at least 6 or 7 religious or quasi-religious communities, just initiating or already established, some of diocesan right, some not, which have arbitrarily been installed in Medjugorje without the permission of the local Diocesan authorities. These communities are more a sign of disobedience than a real charisma of obedience in this Church!

There exists a problem in this diocese of Mostar-Duvno which in recent years has practically precipitated into a schism. At least eight Franciscan priests, who have rebelled against the decision of the Holy See to transfer a certain number of parishes administered by the Franciscans to the diocesan priests, have been expelled from the Franciscan Order and suspended 'a divinis'. In spite of this, they have occupied at least five parishes through force, and continue to exercise sacred functions. They invalidly assist at marriages, hear confessions without canonical faculties and invalidly confer the sacrament of confirmation. Three years ago they even invited a deacon of the Old-Catholic Church who falsely presented himself as a bishop, to preside at a confirmation and he "confirmed" about 800 young people in three parishes.

Two of these expelled priests sought after episcopal consecration from Swiss bishop of the Old-Catholic Church, Hans Gerny, yet without any result.

So many invalid sacraments, so much disobedience, violence, sacrilege, disorder, irregularities, and not a single "message" from tens of thousands of "apparitions" has been directed towards eliminating these scandals. A very strange thing indeed!

The Church, from the local to supreme level, from the beginning to this very day, has clearly and constantly repeated: Non constat de supernaturalitate! No to pilgrimages that would ascribe a supernatural nature to the apparitions, no shrine of the Madonna, no authentic messages nor revelations, no true visions!

This is the state of things today. How will things be tomorrow? We'll leave them in God's hands and under Our Lady's protection!



Natrag

[Lori]

This is a beautiful letter from the Bishop of Mostar to his people.


Official Declaration of the Bishop of Mostar on Medjugorje
delivered on July 25, 1987

Brothers and sisters, today here in Medjugorje the sacrament of confirmation will be administered, and probably you are expecting me to say a few words about those events which are the talk of the entire world. The Church watches all this, and especially what is of interest to her. This is confided to certain individuals and to commissions. As you know, at present, a Commission is mounting an inquiry on the matter. The said Commission has been established by the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference, for the Church cannot endanger her credibility in this 20th Century world. It [the world] keeps an eye on her to catch her off guard, to criticize her and be able to say: this is what you do with everything else in your faith, everything else is like that...this is the way it is with your Christ.

I can tell you that during these six years I prayed, studied and kept silent. Many others also prayed, and I am grateful to them for that. In each Mass I celebrated, I had a thought for Medjugorje; in every rosary that I recited daily, I prayed to the Madonna for God's and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment. This helped me to gain a strong and firm conviction about everything I have heard, read and experienced. Here people are praying and fasting a lot, inspired as they are, of course, by the belief that these events are indeed supernatural; and to preach untruth to the faithful about God, Jesus and the Madonna is worthy of the depths of Hell.

Through all my prayers, my work and research, I have sought one goal only: the discovery of truth. For that purpose, in 1982, I established a Commission of four members which later was expanded to fifteen, thanks to some bishops and father provincials. The larger body included people from nine theological faculties, seven dioceses and four provinces, as well as two highly qualified. psychiatrists. Consulting their colleagues in their respective fields, all these people worked for three full years. The Holy See was informed about their work and the events.

Today, the Commission set by the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference is studying the same problems. In the meantime, there were some who were in a hurry and wanted to go ahead, before the Church's verdict. They proclaimed the existence of miracles and supernatural happenings; from the altar they preached private revelations, a breach to Church regulations as long as those revelations have not been recognized as authentic. For this reason, various Church authorities kept warning against organizing pilgrimages and to wait for the Church's verdict.

On March 24, 1984, the Commission on the Medjugorje events also issued a warning. Unfortunately all this remained fruitless. Then, in the month of October of the same year, the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference issued an order prohibiting official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; and an official pilgrimage was defined as any group organized to come to Medjugorje. This did not help either. Later, on May 13, 1985, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith sent a special letter to the Italian Bishops' Conference asking the bishops to discourage organized pilgrimages... as well as all forms of propaganda. This did not bring any results either. Finally, when the second Commission was set up, His Eminence Cardinal Franjo Kuharic, and the Ordinary of Mostar, declared on behalf of the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference in their January 9, 1987 press release: "For that reason, it is not permitted either to organize pilgrimages or to arrange other manifestations motivated by the supernatural character which might be attribud to the Medjugorje events." This was said by the highest authority in the Church, and this should not be overlooked as if nothing had been said.

At the outset, when the first news was announced about the extraordinary happenings in this parish, the Chancery Office of Mostar intently followed the news and collected everything that might be of help in the search for truth. The Bishop gave all latitude to the pastoral personnel and the children, he even defended them from the attacks of the news media and civil authorities. We taped all interviews, we gathered chronicles and diaries, letters, documents, and all this has been studied by the Commission composed of theology professors and physicians. The three-year research produced the following result: two members of the Commission voted in favor of the supernaturality and authenticity of the Medjugorje events. One member abstained from voting, another wrote that there was something supernatural at the beginning only, while eleven members of the Commission voted against the supernatural character of those events, and thus, that there were no apparitions.

I am deeply convinced that all the members of the Commission worked conscientiously and examined everything that might be of help in finding the truth. The Church cannot risk her credibility, and often in similar cases she carefully probed these kinds of events and banned crowds from gathering where it had been established that the events were not of supernatural origin. It is sufficient to recall Garabandal in Spain, San Damiano in Italy, and tens of similar cases in recent years. In Garabandal the visionaries kept saying that the Madonna had promised a big sign for the entire world. Since then twenty-five years have passed and that big sign has not appeared. Had the Madonna left a sign here, everybody would know what this is all about.

The Madonna, they say, started to appear on the Podbrdo of the Mountain Crnica, but when the militia forbade going there, she came into houses, into forests, fields, vineyards and tobacco fields; she appeared in the church, on the altar, in the sacristy, in the choir loft, on the roof, on the church steeple, on the roads, on the way to Cerno, in a car, on buses, in classrooms, in several places in Mostar and Sarajevo, in monasteries in Zagreb, Varazdin, Switzerland and Italy, once again on the Podbrdo, atop Krizevac, in the parish, in the rectory, etc. It is certain that not even half of the places where the alleged apparitions have taken place have been mentioned, so much so that an earnest man- who venerates the Madonna-asked himself: "My Madonna, what are they doing to you?"

In this diocese, by divine decree, I am the shepherd, teacher of faith, and judge in the matters of faith. Since Medjugorje's events have created tension and division within the Church (some believe in it, some do not), and have evaded Church control, since the recommendations and decisions of the said authorities such as the Commission, the Congregation, and the Bishops' Conference have been ineffective, I, the Ordinary of Mostar, responsible before God for the discipline in the diocese, repeat and sanction former decisions of the ecclesiastical authorities. I do forbid the priests who organize pilgrimages or come here ascribing a supernatural character to these events, to celebrate Mass in the territory of my diocese, and this until the Commission of the Bishops' Conference ends its inquiry.

I turn to you, Immaculate Virgin and Mother, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, Mother of this congregation which is looking for you, prays to you and loves you. I am turning to you, as your servant and Bishop of Mostar, and before the entire world I proclaim my deep and unshakable faith in all the privileges that God has endowed you with, by which you are the first and the most distinguished creature. I also affirm my deep and unshakable faith in your intercession with almighty God for all the needs of your children in this valley of tears. I assert my deep and unshakable faith in your love toward us sinners, and that love you confirmed with your apparitions and assistance. I myself have led pilgrimages to Lourdes. Exactly through the virtue of that faith, I your servant, Bishop of Mostar, before the great multitudes which called on you, find and accept your great sign which became sure and clear after these six years. I am not in need of a special sign, but it is necessary to those who believed in the truth.

That sign to me is that for six years you steadfastly remained silent to all rumors about the sign: it will be, they said, on the hillside of apparitions, visible and permanent; it is going to be realized soon; it will be before long, in a while; be patient for a while, so they were saying in 1981... Then again: it will be realized on the feast of the Immaculate Conception, for Christmas, for the New Year. etc. Thank you, Madonna, because with your long silence of six years you have demonstrated that you have not spoken here, nor appeared, nor given any message or secret nor promised a special sign.

Blessed Virgin, Mother of Christ and of us, intercede for peace in this restless region of the Church, in the diocese of Mostar, intercede especially for this place, for this parish, where innumerable times your blessed name was mentioned in words which were not yours. Make them stop fabricating messages in your name. Accept, Blessed Virgin, satisfaction through the sincere prayers of the devout souls who have no part in fanaticism and disobedience to the Church. Let us all reach the real truth. Dear Madonna, humble and obedient servant of God let the faithful of Medjugorje follow with their firm steps the shepherd of the local Church so that all of us might together glorify and praise you in truth and love.

Amen! +

Pavao Zanic, Bishop Mostar, July 24, 1987

[MarkieW]

Hi ,WOW I did"nt know I Was Posting POISON.I Better Pray For Decernment. What about Saint Josephs Communications promoting Father Calloway,Or EWTN .Am I To Understand That they Are Promoting Poison As well. I Bought The maria Simma Book In The Gift Shop Of The Shrine at the monastary??!! I DiD'Nt Like It Though. I Thought EWTN was Cream Of The Crop. Who Gives You Your Information,I Would Like to Know So I Can Get Good Council on Who"s legit in the Church and who"s not.I Guess We must really ask for GOD"s Mercy,When It"S So Hard To BE A TRUE Catholic ,I Guess We"re In For A BIg Shock when we Get up There,and see who"s In and Who"s Out.Some Of US Might BE Really Surprised!I Guess I'll Go Sit At The Feet Of Jesus in About 20 Minutes and Ask Him.He Is There Right? I HAve"NT Been Misled have I? I Wonder What St. Dismass Thinks About This? Peace,MarkieW

[Lori]

Markie,

Don't be too hard on yourself. Satan is hard at work trying to darken the Light. Divine Mercy is soooooooo important that Satan wants is dirtied so to speak and who better to attack than the priests who are supposed to be increasing our devotion. The Marians need prayers.

Blessings,

Lori

[Denise]

He Is There Right? I HAve"NT Been Misled have I?

If you have to question that one then yes, discernment is a must. Our Lord Himself told us this and it would be dangerous to question it.

Matthew chapter 24

24:10. And then shall many be scandalized and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.
Et tunc scandalizabuntur multi et invicem tradent et odio habebunt invicem

24:11. And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many.
Et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos

24:23. Then if any man shall say to you, Lo here is Christ, or there: do not believe him.
Tunc si quis vobis dixerit ecce hic Christus aut illic nolite credere

24:24. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
Surgent enim pseudochristi et pseudoprophetae et dabunt signa magna et prodigia ita ut in errorem inducantur si fieri potest etiam electi

Anyone who propagates Medjugorje is in disobedience to the church because they are being disobedient to the Bishop of Mostar, who is the only one that can make the final decision on anything that happens in the confines of his See.

The Blessed Mother herself makes this clear when she tells Juan Diego, "Go to the Bishop." She didn't say to go to the bishop and if he didn't comply to go to another bishop of another See. St. Juan went to the bishop, whose authority it is over these matters and when he wanted a sign, St. Juan went back and Our lady in fact sent a sign to Juan's bishop. She didn't send the sign to Vatican or anyone else because she knows whose decision it is concerning these matters. Same thing happened with St. Bernadette.

The Simma book, this is based on some word of Sr. Emmanual of medj., who i undestand is not a religious at all. She is a franciscan in league with the Franciscans in Medjugorje, who had their faculties removed by Pope JPII and were ordered to leave the church property. They stayed against Rome's and the bishops orders, hence the property that houses the so-called visions.

Disobedience in the beginning and still to this day, disobedience. Can you name all the saints that have said that obedience is the key?

Blessings
Denise

[MarkieW]

Hi ,Sorry I Should Clarify,I Know Full Well Our Lord Is In The Most Blessed Sacrament of The Altar,The Question was Rhetorical. I Believe,I Adore,I Hope,and I Love You,I Beg Pardon for All those Who Do Not Believe,Do Not Adore,Do Not Hope,And Do Not Love You.If A Person Loses Sleep Over This Med.Nonsense ,Well Enough Said. Jesus Is Here With Us.I Don"t doubt The Obediance Aspect.After All With So Much Going on with the Bishops Who are Disobediant,I Should trust all of them in virtue of the Office......NOT!!!!! Our Lord is not Waiting to zap us into hell at any moment.Even If People are innocently decieved( into what by the way Going to Confession,Praying the Rosary more,ect.?) Is God going to spew people out of his mouth because of a few misguided people(If Thats True) Find A Deep Devotion to Jesus,Even The Catechism States that Our Separated brethren who Don"T know better have a chance to be saved.IF HE Died To Save us while we were his enemies like scripture says how much more will he do for us if we are his friends and also I Know About Matt:7:21.Did you Read the Holy Fathers Encyclical on Gods Love it awesome to think God Loves us so much! Father John Corapi Said Something once I Always try and Remember"God puts Obvious limitations on our intelligence,but none whatsoever on our stupidity". Peace in ChristMM

[MarkieW]

Lori ,I Would Like to Know If You Have any "Official Documentation on The Marians Being out of Favor With The Church" If This IS only your personal opinion you should back it up with something from the Vatican Stating as Much. Specifically That The marians Are not in favor with the church,You Have"nt answered my Question about St.Joe"s Communications or EWTN. BEcause I Will Be Calling them For Clarification On This Matter,I Will Get to the bottom of this one,I HAve had an association with the Marians for many years.You Telling me I"ve Been Duped,I"LL SHOW YOU MY LIFE! LoveMM

[Denise]

If A Person Loses Sleep Over This Med.Nonsense ,Well Enough Said.

Until one does an exhaustive investigation from the very beginning into the Medjugorje deception, one can hardly claim it as nonsense and enough hasn't been said. Ignoring the facts won't make them go away.

To say Our Blessed Virgin said this and that, which much she supposedly said is against the teachings of the Church, and to have a multitude believe that Our Lady would say those things is straight from the pit of hell and defending her honor and that of the Church is certainly worthy of losing sleep over. Fighting to save souls from deception is very important.

Not every aspect of being a faithful Catholic is a comfortable experience and fighting the devil ain't comfortable in the least bit.

Ca_joan of Arc

[Denise]

Lori ,I Would Like to Know If You Have any "Official Documentation on The Marians Being out of Favor With The Church" If This IS only your personal opinion you should back it up with something from the Vatican Stating as Much

Is it only our personal opinion that Cardinal Mahony is not in Communion with Rome, with the Magisterium of the Church? Do we need documentation from Rome to tell us this? Why, no. We know what the Church teaches and we know that the things he says and does are contrary to what the Church says and does. If we know what is and is not in line with the Church then we don't need a document from Rome saying to stay away from it, our common sense tells us.

Is there a document from Rome telling us not to read the books by Fr. Andrew Greely, even though he was still a priest in "good standing?" No, but a Catholic that knows their faith knows that one should not read pornography, even by a priest.

I could go on but I think you get my point. I will allow lori to address the rest of your post.

God bless
Denise

[MarkieW]

Ah,Very Good My Sister in Christ,Then My Question is Do we need documents from Med. Stating somethings contrary to the evidence of the fruit of this place(According to the peoples testamonies of Course)I For One Haven"t been there or care to because I Know My Redeemer Lives 5 Minutes from my House(How Blessed I Am ) I Want to Know whats Going to be the Serious Fallout of the devotions that come from there,if people are going back to their faiths because of their experiances there.(I Know A Few People ) (Maybe Vision chasers?Who Knows)I don"t Profess to know how to read souls. People went to Lourdes before it was "Approved" Are They in Hell Now or something?I Remember St.Paul Speaking about creating all these dissensions and things,if people are lead back to Jesus in The Most blessed Sacrament,That CanT come from the devil Because he wants us far from Jesus not Close to him. I Pray at the Feet Of Jesus Every Day In a Diocese who Loyalties are anything but 100% to the Magesterial teachings of Holy Mother Church Does that mean my Prayers are in vain?I KNow Jesus Loves Everyone Of Us ,The Crucifixtion was so Brutal,Everything he endured for us.If We Are Not Spitting in his Face and Being like the unrepentant thief than whats the matter with trying to do our best?,peace,MM