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Marian Helper Problems.../Medjugorje
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MarieT
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... frequently the alleged 'seers' kept changing their supposed conversations with the 'holy mother', how their stories became bordering on the ridiculous


1981, July: Under examination, Mirjana Dragicevic lies under oath - first of all, she stated: "'We went to look for our sheep when at once...' (The associate pastor interrupted and told me that they actually went out to smoke, which they hid from their parents.) 'Wait a minute, Mirjana, you're under oath. Did you go out to look for your sheep?' She put her hand over her mouth. 'Forgive me, we went out to smoke'" 6

1982, Jan 14: "Vicka, Marija, and Jakov ... speaking falsehoods."

1982, March [Spring]: Bishop Zanic asked the 'seers' to write everything they knew about the sign without making the 'secret' public." Ivan Dragicevic wrote and dated his May 9, 1982. He wrote: "The sign will occur in June." ... "In the first months, they often said that the 'great sign' would come very soon, quickly, and so on. When the first year ended, they changed their tune."

1982, April 4: Vicka Marija and Jakov again caught in lying. 14

1985, March 7:"Three members of the commission went to ask Ivan if what Laurentin wrote were true." - "When will this [sign] occur? The sign will occur in June" [It didn't happen!!! F.J.L.] 28

1988, Jan. 27: "Medjugorje [alleged] visionary Vicka Ivankovic, in an interview with an American attorney said: 'Our Lady said if a person wants to know Jesus, he should read THE POEM OF THE MAN-GOD by Maria Valtorta. That book is the truth.'" 32

1985, Jan. 31: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in answer to questions, again reminded the world that "Poem of the man-God" has continued to be condemned. He informed Cardinal Siri:

1988, July 11: "3. From the text and testimonies which bear my signature it follows that the Madonna communicated to me that the community and the program of Father Tomislav V[lasic]. and Agnes Heupel are the way God intended for me and the rest of us. Now I repeat that I have never received from the Madonna, nor have I given to Father Tomislav V., not to any other individual, any such approval or instructions from the Madonna.

4. My first declaration, as published in Croatian and Italian, does not correspond to the truth. I personally had no desire to give any sort of written declaration. Father Tomislav V. kept suggesting to me, stressing over and over again, that I as a seer should write the declaration which the world was waiting for.

5. I also have to say that the contents of "My Declaration" as it presented bearing my signature pose some questions...: 'Anything in my statement which might be construed as the Madonna's approval of the undertaking of Father Tomislav Vlasic and Agnes Heupel is absolutely not in conformity with the truth, and in the same way, the idea that I had a spontaneous desire to write my declaration of April 1988 is also not in conformity with the truth.'" 33

"I asked Vicka at our meeting: 'Did Our Lady mention anything about the Mostar chaplains, Vego and Prusina?' 'She did not. We don't know them,' responded all three. Our conversation lasted 30 minutes, and I taped all of it. I repeated the question of the chaplains of Mostar several times, and they always responded, 'We don't know them.' Later on, I found from Vicka's diary that they knew the chaplains very well. It was clear to me that they were lying, yet I did not want to mention this to them in order to maintain their confidence during our conversations."

"8. On the 4th of April 1982, Vicka and Jakov came to visit me 'sent by Our Lady.' The chaplains of Mostar, Vego and Prusina, were thrown out of the Franciscan Order in January of that year by the superiors of their Order. Many followers of Medjugorje and 'Our Lady' defended the expelled chaplains. During our conversation, Vicka very excitedly began: 'The last time we were with you, we didn't tell you everything and for this reason Our Lady scolded us. We spoke of many things and therefore we forgot...' 'What did you forget?' 'Our Lady told us to tell you that those chaplains, Vego and Prusina, are priests and, therefore, they can celebrate Mass just like other priests.' 'Wait a minute. Did Our Lady tell you this before our last meeting?' 'Yes, that's why she sent us to you. Last time I spoke of many other things and I forgot to mention this.' During that previous meeting I asked her directly several times if Our Lady mentioned anything about the two chaplains. It was clear to me that Vicka was lying, and this was proof enough for me not to trust her statements. Marija and Jakov also participated in this lie."

The credibility of the 'seers': Marija Pavlovic.

"14. The same Marija Pavlovic made another public declaration on the 11th of July 1988. ...: 'I feel a moral obligation to declare before God, Our Lady (the Madonna), and the Church...I now declare that ... My first declaration... does not correspond to the truth..."

"It is a terrible sin to attribute one's own lies to Our Lady. When the world learns of this, who will believe them anymore? They have been discredited. No one can destroy this material evidence. It will be reproduced and spread by word of mouth. I know well that there are many who disregard such material. They accept the events of Medjugorje irrationally, with great emotion and with personal interests. They are blind, but these documents will remain a part of the history of the Church and Mariology."

(from > MEDJUGORJE
A CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS
Allegations vs Evidence)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: the six medjugorje 'seers' Reply with quote

The Six Seers


... brief biographies of the self-styled seers will be provided. In several cases they have the same surname which tends to cause confusion. They are, in order of age:

Vicka (Vida) Ivankovic, born on 3 September 1964 is the oldest of the seers. She has been receiving daily apparitions since 24 June 1981, although on some days there were no apparitions while on others she received five or more. She has received nine of the ten secrets and still receives daily apparitions. Vicka is always willing to speak to any large number of pilgrims who wish to meet her, and to put their questions to Our Lady and to transmit her answers to them.

She claims that for two years, from 7 January 1983 until 10 April 1985, Our Lady recounted her life story in great detail, and that this autobiography will be published in due course. She also stated in an interview for an Australian television network, which I have on video-cassette, that Our Lady took her on a guided tour of heaven, hell, and purgatory. Jakov Colo, the youngest visionary, was also invited on the tour.

Our Lady took Vicka by the right hand and Jakov by the left and they floated off. Vicka wondered how long the journey would take, and was amazed to find that it lasted only one second. The tour itself took 20 minutes. Vicka did not explain how she was able to be so precise about the time taken.

Heaven is a very large room in which people wearing grey, yellow, and pink gowns are walking, praying, and singing while small angels float above them. Purgatory is a big space in which no one can be seen, but it was possible to feel that the souls there were beating and thumping each other. There is a large fire in hell into which the souls enter and emerge as beasts.

Another of her stories is of a taxi driver who had been given a bloody handkerchief which he was about to throw in a river. A mysterious women in black, who, of course, turned out to be Our Lady, prevented him just in time, because, had he done so the world would have been destroyed (see May 1990, Part 6).

No open minded person who reads Monsignor Zanic's account of Vicka (see May 1990—Parts 6-11), or of her attempt to defraud Dutch benefactors of Medjugorje by telling them that Our Lady wished them to finance the construction of an hotel by the father of one of her friends, can escape the conclusion that she is an habitual liar (see November 1997, Medjugorje Incredibilities.)
In January 2002 Vicka married Mario Mijatovic from the parish of Gradino. They live in the parish of Medjugorje.

Mirjana Dragicevic was born in Sarajevo on 18 March 1965.

Her first vision was on 24 June 1981 and after receiving the tenth secret on 25 December 1982 she ceased to have daily apparitions. Mirjana said that parting from Our Lady caused her great sorrow, and they found it hard to part from each other even after being together for 45 five minutes. Our Lady assured Mirjana that she must return to a normal daily routine and live in future without her motherly advice. She warned Mirjana that the first few months without their daily meetings would be very hard for her, and this proved to be the case. Mirjana fell into a state of deep depression, avoided everyone, and locked herself in her bedroom weeping, hoping that Our Lady would appear to her, and calling out her name. Our Lady bestowed a great gift to her, that of promising to appear upon her birthday for the rest of her life. However, a year is a long time, visitors were coming from all sides, and so Our Lady had a change of mind. On 2 September 1987 Mirjana received an internal locution, and from then on, on the second of every month, she has received an internal locution or an actual apparition of Our Lady, and sometimes they pray together for unbelievers. From 2 January 1997 these visits ceased to be on a private basis. Mirjana is made aware of the exact time when Our Lady will appear, from 10am until 11am, and this monthly meeting is now open to the public.
Mirjana has received all ten secrets. She claims to have received them from Our Lady on a parchment which has been examined by “linguistic experts” who pronounced that it is written in an unknown language. This is fortunate as had this not been the case they would no longer have been secret. The only precedent for a document in an unknown language is that of The Book of Mormon One wonders why Our Lady would have given the ten secrets to Mirjana, who speaks only Croatian, in an unknown language, and whether by some miracle she is able to understand it. It is also claimed that, having been carbon tested for date and substance, the parchment has been documented as made from an unknown substance.2 Mirjana was married to Marko Soldo on 16 September 1989 and has two children, Marija born on 8 December 1990, and Veronica born on 19 April 1994. She is married and lives in Medjugorje.

Mirjana has the distinction of being the only seer to have had an apparition of the devil. He appeared to her on 14 April 1982 while she was waiting for Our Lady to appear. He was wearing the same clothes worn by Our Lady,he had a terrible black face but with Mary’s features. He stared at her with burning black eyes and offered her all the pleasures of the world, but she refused.

[i]hmmm makes one wonder huh?[/i]

A little later Our Lady appeared and said: “I apologize, but you had to see him in order to know that he exists and that you will be tempted in this world.” 3 To the best of my knowledge this is the only occasion when Our Lady has apologized to a seer, and no explanation is given as to why she did not command the devil to manifest himself to any of the other Medjugorje seers to prove to them that he exists.

Marija Pavlovic was born on 1 April 1965. She is married, to Paolo Lunetti on 1 April 1993, went for a honeymoon on the Côte d’Azur in France. The couple now have three children, Mikaele, born on 14 July 1994; Francesco Maria, born on 24 January 1996, and Marco Maria born on 19 July 1997. Mrs Lunetti now lives in Monsa, Italy, in a “palatial” six storey home.4 She has received nine secrets, and still has daily apparitions. She is on such good terms with Our Lady that the Blessed Virgin allows herself to be caressed if Marija requests it. A nun who was present while Marija was witnessing an apparition relates:

Marija asked me whether I desired to touch the Virgin. I said yes straight away. She then took my right hand and I lifted it to the Virgin's shoulder: she then guided my hand down telling me what I was touching. I myself neither saw nor felt anything. Thus I caressed her right down to her feet.

eeeek.....i digress

Surely this ludicrous and almost blasphemous nonsense is enough to deprive Pavlovic of any credibility.
Marija receives and reveals Our Lady’s “Message to the Parish of Medjugorje and the entire World” on the 25th of each month.


Ivan Dragicevic, who is not related to Mirjana, was born in Bijakovici in the parish of Medjugorje on 25 May 1965. His secondary education took place in Citluk where he failed to pass the first year examinations. In August 1981 he entered the Franciscan seminary for Herzegovina where he claimed to receive daily apparitions and claimed that Our Lady always gave him the traditional Croatian greeting: “Praise be Jesus and Mary”. It is somewhat surprising that Our Lady, who is our model of humility, would bestow praise upon herself!

He failed to pass his first year examinations after two attempts. It was thought that he might have more success at the seminary in Dubrovnik where he was sent in the autumn of 1982. On one occasion, during the recitation of the rosary, he informed his fellow seminarians that Our Lady had appeared upon a picture of Our Lord and said: “This is your father.” Our Lord did not once refer to Himself as our father in the Bible and is never referred to as such in the Tradition of the Church. Once again his academic progress was poor and he left the seminary in January 1983 and returned home. He spent, and still spends, a great deal of his time touring the world, addressing large audiences, and never fails to delight them with purported apparitions of Our Lady. On 23 October 1994 he married Laureen Murphy, an American beauty queen from Boston, and, of course, had a wedding day apparition. They have three children. He divides his time between his homes in Medjugorje and Boston. He has received nine secrets and by 2001 more than 7,000 daily apparitions, and still has a daily apparition wherever he is in the world. He is now extremely wealthy and drives a custom built BMW with “outside the series” wide sports tyres.

Ivanka (Ivica) Ivankovic was born in Bijakovici on 21 June 1966. She married Rajko Elez on 29 December 1986, and has three children, Kristina, Josip, and Ivan. She has received ten secrets and ceased having daily apparitions on 7 May 1985. Ivanka claimed that in this final apparition Our Lady had never looked more sweet and beautiful, and was wearing the most beautiful dress that she had ever seen. It sparkled with silver and gold. The Virgin was accompanied by two angels with matching outfits, and asked Ivanka if she had a wish. The wish was to see her deceased mother, and then, after embraces and kisses, there was a final message: “My dear child, today is our last meeting. Do not be sad. I shall return on your birthday every year except for this one. My child, do not think that I am not coming because you have done something wrong. You have done nothing wrong. The plans which my Son and I had you accepted with your whole heart and you carried them out. Ivanka, the blessings that you and your brothers (the other seers?) have received have never previously been accorded to anyone on earth.” After the conversation had lasted an hour, Ivanka gave a farewell kiss to Our Lady who then rose aloft to heaven accompanied by the two angels.
She now has one apparition a year. She states that one apparition a year is sufficient for her as she has already received more graces than anyone else on earth. In 1997 the visit lasted for six minutes and the message was as follows:

Dear Children, pray from your hearts so that you will know how to forgive and to be forgiven. I thank you for your prayers and for the love that you give me.

Ivanka claimed that when she was preparing to celebrate the New Year at midnight in 1982 Our Lady paid her a surprise visit and wished everyone present a Happy New Year. Marija, Vicka, and Ivan claim to have had only nine secrets confided to them and hence still have daily apparitions.

Jakov Colo, born in Bijakovici on 6 March 1971, is the youngest of the visionaries. He was married on 11 April 1993 to Anna-Lisa Barozzi and has two children, Ariana Maria born in January 1995, and David, born in September 1996. He received daily apparitions from 25 June 1981 until 12 September 1998. Between 7 January 1983 and 11 April 1983 Our Lady told him the story of her life. During an apparition in 1993, at the height of the war, Our Lady asked him to pray for peace in the former Yugoslavia, and convinced him that his prayers could bring the war to an end. On 12 September 1998, after visiting the USA, he came to the parish office in Medjugorje saying that Our Lady had appeared to him for the last time on that day. The apparition lasted for 30 minutes from 11.15 to 11.45. He did, however, receive the promise of a regular visit on Christmas Day each year. The Virgin revealed the tenth secret to him with great sadness, but comforted him gently, saying: “Do not be sad, because like a mother I will be with you always, and like a true mother I will never abandon you.” Jakov has had the privilege of shaking hands with Our Lady:

On the feast of Our Lady's Nativity (8 September 1981), the Virgin appeared to Vicka and Jakov in Jakov's house. So Jakov held out his hand to the Virgin, saying: "Dear Holy Virgin, I wish you a happy birthday." Thus it was that the little boy had the great good fortune to see the Mother of God shake his hand.

It is claimed that "Jakov's face, eager and upturned, is one of the most external outward proofs we have of the authenticity of the events." If one reads the accepted criteria for discerning the authenticity of alleged apparitions, eager and upturned faces will not be found among them (see Appendix I).
The situation, according to the June 1996 issue of the Medjugorje Herald is that: “Marija, Vicka, and Ivan have each received nine secrets and so continue to have daily apparitions.” This is very convenient in order to ensure that the pilgrims and the money continue to roll in. The Medjugorje pilgrims expect, as part of their package-trip, to see a seer going into ecstasy while experiencing an apparition. They are never disappointed.

Jelena Vasilj and Marijana Vasilj
In addition to the six seers already listed, there are two who do not claim to have apparitions but to receive inner locutions in which they hear the voice of Our Lady and see her inwardly with the heart. They are Jelena Vasilj, born on 14 May 1972, and Marijana Vasilj (no relation) born on 5 October 1972. They have established a prayer group which the Virgin not only attends but actually leads through the two locutionists. Our Lady leads another prayer group which she directs through Ivan and Marija.5

from : Medjugorje after 21 years
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MarieT
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: the six medjugorje 'seers' Reply with quote

MarieT wrote:
The Six Seers


addendum...... seers to "seers"

humble apologies for oversight
m.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Medjugorje handouts Reply with quote

It is with great sadness that i must report that today after palm sunday mass, there was a prayer group leader handing out medjugorje magazines to parishioners in my mother's parish......she gave my mother 'heaps to read'.....

i was attending the Palm Sunday Mass at the Cathedral instead, so wasnt there to set her straight.

I wonder if Fr. knows what she's doing?.....i'll be emailing him and also the archbishop for a statement that could be posted in the bulletin that the church has not approved Medjugorje and therefore its not appropriate to hand out info that promotes it......

m Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Archbishop (now Cardinal) Pell forbids Medjugorje " Reply with quote

MarieT wrote:
AUSTRALIA -

Archbishop George Pell of Sydney has refused to allow
Vicka Mijatovic-Ivankovic, 38, one of the six alleged Medjugorje
visionaries, to speak in any Church building during a visit to his
country, because her claims have been refuted by the bishops of
former Yugoslavia.

The archbishop feared that if he allowed her to
address Catholics from Church property he would be giving official
sanction to [b]claims that were rejected by Mrs Mijatovic-Ivankovic's
local bishops, whose function it was to determine their authenticity
.
[Catholic Herald - quoted in Catholic Family Newsletter 3 November
2002]
[/b]


....and again

National shrine bars Medjugorje priest from celebrating Mass
11/21/2002
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Franciscan Father Jozo Zovko, the priest most widely connected with Medjugorje, the site of the reported Marian apparitions in Bosnia-Herzegovina, has been told he cannot celebrate Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington.

Shrine officials said the action was taken after receiving information from the priest's home Diocese of Mostar-Duvno in Bosnia-Herzegovina that his priestly faculties had been revoked.

Father Zovko, who was once played by actor Martin Sheen in a movie about Medjugorje, was scheduled to celebrate a Mass and lead a prayer vigil Nov. 21 at the shrine for a national pilgrimage composed of people who believe in the reported Marian apparitions.

Father Zovko was pastor of the church where many of the alleged apparitions took place. A Nov. 19 announcement on the national shrine Web site said that the Nov. 21 Marian Mass and prayer vigil would take place, but without the participation of Father Zovko.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

taken from http://rateyourmusic.com/yaccs/commentsn/b=90000022080_and_e=84622615

some interesting points are raised

P Bump states>

Quote:
At every alleged "apparition" that these supposed seers have, they say the "Gospa" prays the Our Father and Glory Be with them.

Our Lady revealed herself to St. Bernadette at Lourdes as the "Immaculate Conception." That is, Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin by God Himself and she lived a completely sinless life.

This is a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church.

Now how can the Immaculate Conception pray the Our Father and say," forgive us our trespasses" when she has none????

No Medjugorje supporter or promoter has ever answered this question. I have asked Ivan Dragicevic (one of the alleged "seers") this very question to his face on two separate occasions on his annual "Gospa" tour of the US, and he has had no answer for it.

He only shrugs his shoulder, gives a cold half-smile and says, "bless you" then turns and walks away.

All any honest Catholic needs to do is read the blasphemous statements these charlatans have put into the mouth of our Blessed Mother. The whole thing is an absolute fraud!

Sr. Lucia of Fatima is on record as having said on numerous occasions to Fr. Messias Coeher, her Spiritual Director, "Do not go to Medjugorje. It is not our Lady who is appearing there." .....

The most well-known of any authenticated Marian visionary of the past 100 years explicitly stated that it is not the Blessed Virgin Mary who is appearing at Medjugorje. She DID say implicitly that SOMEONE or SOMETHING is appearing to the "seers" from Medjugorje. The only conclusion one could make from Sr. Lucia's statements is that the "visions" of Medjugorje are demonic in origin. P Bump


going to check further into Sr Lucia's comments...has anyone any info on this?
pax
m
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marie,

I am sure Denise knows who to contact regarding Sr. Lucia's statements. Rick Salbato of Unity Publishing is the source I would turn to regarding Sr. Lucia. His website is www.unitypublishing.com and there is a way to email him from his homepage to ask questions.

Blessings,

Lori
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: sr Lucia on medjugorje Reply with quote

thank you Lori, ...found it after a google search

Quote:
More recently, a newsletter published by Brother Michael of the Holy Trinity in St. Parres-Les-Vaudes, France reports that Sister Lucia dos Santos told a relative that the Virgin Mary is not appearing at Medjugorje.

Seeking confirmation, we personally spoke with Sr. Lucia's Spiritual Director, Father Messias Coeher, also the publisher of the official "Fatima Magazine" in the Cova da Iria. Father Coeher not only definitively enlightened us, but also dozens of CUF members during a four-session talk he delivered in Detroit, that Sr. Lucia had stated over and over again that it was not the Virgin Mary appearing in Medjugorje.


"Do not go to Medjugorje. Our Lady is not appearing there."
-- Sr. Lucia of Fatima (on numerous occasions)


source: http://www.unitypublishing.com/Newsletter/oct24_98.html
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Ratzinger on Medjugorje Reply with quote

Quote:
Ratzinger's frei erfunden.

In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements which were supposedly made by the Holy Father and the Cardinal Prefect (Ratzinger), and forwarded them to the Vatican in the form of a memorandum, the Cardinal responded in writing on 22 July 1998: "The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention" - "frei erfunden".


from catholiclight http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:_C-iVndHlFoJ:catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/014169.html+ratzinger+medjugorje+%22holy+father%22+and+myself&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=10
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, where to begin....Ok, I am going to post a link to the actual article that Mariette was quoting but first, what I am going to post is something very recent and it has to do with Sr. Lucia. I received a rebuttle concerning this from Rick Salbato of Unity Publishing himself, to pass back on to the man spreading around a lie.

This lie has been created by grunerites, schismatics that follow the man/priest with his faculties removed, one Nicholas Gruner. They are saying that there were two Sr. Lucias' one an imposter who is the one that had been living in the convent for 50 years. Rolling Eyes

Ok, their agenda/conspiracy is to have folks believe that the Lucia who said the consecration of Russia had been done is a fake. Well, the two letters published yesterday between Alexy II and Pope Benedict blow that conspiracy right out of the water. Anyway...here is what Rick sent me to pass on to those believing in the hogwash.

Dear Doctor Frank Joseph,

Your email was passed on to me because I have had a personal relationship with Lucia and the Convent in Coimbra for the past 7 years. The very idea that there is two Sister Lucias is an insult to Fatima, to Lucia and to the Church. I do not think that you want to do that. Most of these people who slander Fatima, like Father Gruner, have ipso facto left the Church and are in Traditional Movements that are anti-Catholic.

I lived 100 feet from Lucia's house in Algustral and talked with her living relatives almost everyday. I even took them in my car to visit Lucia. I personally met with Sister Lucia 11 times, talked with her often, sent questions to her and recieved answers from her. Father Kondor, who is in charge of the canonization of the children, and the go-between for Lucia and the Vatican is a good friend of mine. Mother Celena is also a good friend. Sister Isabelle, the porter of the Convent has been my best friend in Portugal for most of these 7 years including her entire family. I also have a good friend who stays at the convent 4 times a year to help with things the nuns cannot do, and she knows a great deal about Lucia. Doctor Blanca, Lucia's doctor and mine, has spent hundreds of hours with Sister Lucia including being at her side when she died.

Over the 50 years that Sister Lucia lived with the Carmelites she has kept a diary each and everyday. These notes and daily insites have been collected by Father Kondor over the years, and are now being prepaired for publication by Father Kondor. I know some of the information in these diaries and they will be earthshaking.

One of the interesting things about Lucia is how she has influenced the other 25 to 35 nuns in the Convent. Just like St. Francis or St. Therese, many other nuns in this convent have become saints in my opinion because of the spiritual example and advice of Lucia.

At the death of Lucia she saw Jacinta, Francisco, Mary and Jesus and spoke with them. This was witnessed by Mother Celena and Doctor Branca.

Based on all the above I guarantee that it is Sister Lucia who spent 50 years in the Convent of Coimbra and died there. Where these photos come from does not matter to me, they could be Sister Lucia or altered photos and in either case it does not prove anything, because only Sister Lucia could have been in the Convent of Coimbra constantly exposed to her relatives, her friends, Cardinals, priests and me. Only Lucia could know the secrets of Fatima that she has brought forth. Only Lucia could have had the revelations and visions that she had in the Convent (to be in the new book soon). Only Lucia could have answered the questions that I asked of her. Only Lucia could have cured the hundreds of people who asked for her prayers and these continue after her death - the latest in Argentino.

So Doctor, please stop passing on information from these Fatima bashing web sites.

Rick Salbato www.unitypublishing.com


If you will remember, Rick was the trusted currier that delivered Lucia's writings to Fr. Kondor. I am anxious for the new book to come out.

Concerning Mariette's post
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Newsletter/oct24_98.html
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict on Mejudgorje Reply with quote

MarieT wrote:
Quote:
Ratzinger's frei erfunden.

In 1998, when a certain German gathered various statements which were supposedly made by the Holy Father and the Cardinal Prefect (Ratzinger), and forwarded them to the Vatican in the form of a memorandum, the Cardinal responded in writing on 22 July 1998: "The only thing I can say regarding statements on Medjugorje ascribed to the Holy Father and myself is that they are complete invention" - "frei erfunden".


from catholiclight http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:_C-iVndHlFoJ:catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/014169.html+ratzinger+medjugorje+%22holy+father%22+and+myself&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=10



Pope Benedict on Mejudgorje: Not the Real McCoy

Read what Our Holy Father says of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje: "not a single proof exists that these events concern supernatural apparitions and revelations."

He continued, "We at the congregation felt that priests should be of service to those faithful who seek Confession and Holy Communion, leaving out the question of the authenticity of the apparitions."

I also noticed that the number of alleged apparitions associated with Medjugorje was 35,000 and counting.


The famed site of Medjugorje, where devotees believe the Virgin Mary has been appearing and offering revelations since 1981, falls within the territory of the diocese of Mostar-Duvno in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Almost from the beginning, there have been tensions between the Franciscans at Medjugorje, many of whom have embraced and supported popular belief in the apparitions, and the local bishops, who have generally been more skeptical.

Bishop Ratko Peric, 62, of Mostar-Duvno recently gave an interview to his diocesan newspaper, Crkva na kamenu, which means "The Church on the Rock," about a conversation he had with Pope Benedict XVI during his late February ad limina visit. Peric indicates that Benedict shares his skeptical stance.

The following is an excerpt:

Some newspapers have written that this Pope visited Medjugorje incognito while he was a cardinal and that he is preparing to recognize Medjugorje as a shrine, etc. Did you touch upon this topic?

We did, and I wrote to and spoke with the Holy Father on it. He only laughed surprisingly. Regarding the events of Medjugorje our position is well known: not a single proof exists that these events concern supernatural apparitions and revelations. Therefore from the church's perspective no pilgrimages are allowed which would attribute any authenticity to these alleged apparitions.

The Holy Father told me: "We at the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] always asked ourselves, how can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that occur every day and for so many years? Are they still occurring every day?"

I responded: "Every day, Holy Father, to one of the [visionaries] in Boston, to another near Milan and still another in Krehin Gradac (Herzegovina), and everything is done under the protocol of 'apparitions of Medjugorje'. Up till now there have been about 35,000 'apparitions' and there is no end in sight!"

… The numerous absurd messages, insincerities, falsehoods and disobedience associated with the events and "apparitions" of Medjugorje from the very outset, all disprove any claims of authenticity. Much pressure has been made to force the recognition of the authenticity of private revelations, yet not through convincing arguments based upon the truth, but through the self-praise of personal conversions and by statements such as one "feels good". How can this ever be taken as proof of the authenticity of apparitions?

… Finally the Holy Father said: "We at the congregation felt that priests should be of service to those faithful who seek Confession and Holy Communion, leaving out the question of the authenticity of the apparitions."

source http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/04/pope_benedict_o.html
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KevinSymonds



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Pope Benedict on Mejudgorje Reply with quote

I think that we have a severe misunderstanding in what Pope Benedict said in this citation.

When I first received the information from the Bishop himself via a friend, I was confused by the grammar and structure of the document. Having studied a number of languages over the past several years, I have picked up a few linguistic skills that have served well. They do so here and allow me to point out what reference I am talking about.

Quote:
Read what Our Holy Father says of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje: "not a single proof exists that these events concern supernatural apparitions and revelations."


Ratzinger himself did not say this. This is Bishop Peric speaking. Peric relates the story to everyone and when the Pope says something, he is sure to give quotations or preface it saying, "The Holy Father told me....etc." The line in question:

Quote:
We did, and I wrote to and spoke with the Holy Father on it. He only laughed surprisingly. Regarding the events of Medjugorje our position is well known: not a single proof exists that these events concern supernatural apparitions and revelations. Therefore from the church's perspective no pilgrimages are allowed which would attribute any authenticity to these alleged apparitions.


has no quotation marks, only Peric saying that the Pope laughed. The confusion is that he doesn't indicate clearly the separation between the Pope's act of laughing and then the position. Furthermore, Peric uses the majestic plural, something that the Pope of Rome uses. This lends further confusion to the text. However, when we look at some of Peric's homilies, he himself uses the majestic plural speaking of his own episcopate. This is appropriate for Bishops to do, even if they aren't the Bishop of Rome.

I submit this clarification for everyone so that they can be better equipped when talking to Medjugorje supporters, not to mention the sake of truth itself.

If you would like to see a cleaned-up version of Peric's interview, please visit my web page:

http://www.kevinsymonds.com/medjugorje/medb16.html

I have remained faithful to every word that Peric translated into English from the Croatian interview. "Cleaned-up" is in reference to doing a better job of making sure subjects are clearer.

Peace!
-KJS
P.S. I say "Peric translated" because he provided the English translation and he understands English to communicate in it.
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Denise
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14358
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin are you talking about the interview with the Pope that Mark W. sent to us all? Are you talking about the recent homily...? Anyway, thanks for the link. Please respond. Very Happy This thread is too long and i am sick so i can't go fishing around right now. Yes, we want the truth.

You have to get Donal's book, wow!

Denise
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Denise
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 14358
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. Ok, I see what you are referring to.

I am comforted that the bishop has the final say anyway.
Donal touches on the Ad limina in Feb. at the end of the book. Very Happy

Denise
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KevinSymonds



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Peric's Interview Reply with quote

Denise wrote:
Kevin are you talking about the interview with the Pope that Mark W. sent to us all? You have to get Donal's book, wow!


Yes, I was speaking in reference to the interview with Peric and the Diocesan paper.

Now is that Donal's book "The Medjugorje Deception"?

Peace!
-KJS
p.s. I have a response from Michael of MedjugorjeUSA. I'll call you later today and discuss it with you.
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